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+--- Thread: For the sake of argument... (/thread-5330.html)
For the sake of argument... - Coach - 04-30-2010
I agree with Ruby?
For the sake of argument... - jstraw - 04-30-2010
<!--quoteo(post=93751:date=Apr 30 2010, 09:54 AM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 30 2010, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Because 1st base is the easiest position to find an adequate replacement at in baseball...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why I don't want to pay ANYONE huge money to play first.
I'd really hate to be in the Cardinals' spot. Couldn't happen to a nicer team.
For the sake of argument... - Rappster - 04-30-2010
This one seems like a pretty nutty scenario...
For the sake of argument... - Coldneck - 04-30-2010
<!--quoteo(post=93756:date=Apr 30 2010, 11:13 AM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Apr 30 2010, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93751:date=Apr 30 2010, 09:54 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 30 2010, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Because 1st base is the easiest position to find an adequate replacement at in baseball...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why I don't want to pay ANYONE huge money to play first.
I'd really hate to be in the Cardinals' spot. Couldn't happen to a nicer team.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it would suck to have Pujols playing 1B.
First base is an easier position to play, but I'd be quite happy to have a Pujols caliber player and pay him a fortune on this team. This team has no true slam dunk superstar. It hasn't since Lee's amazing 2005 season (wow, has it been that long?). I'd love to have one guy like Pujols, Matt Holliday, Crawford, Teixeira, Adrian Gonzalez, etc.
For the sake of argument... - VanSlawAndCottoCheese - 04-30-2010
<!--quoteo(post=93751:date=Apr 30 2010, 10:54 AM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 30 2010, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Because 1st base is the easiest position to find an adequate replacement at in baseball, SS is the most difficult. It would take Castro and probably 2-3 more top prospects to get Gonzalez. Gonzalez would then need to be signed to a Soriano-type extension after the season. It's just not a winning situation for the Cubs, IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't Castro's ultimate position rumored to be 2B with--in an ideal world--with Lee at SS? And how are our other Middle IF prospects (Watkins, Falherty, LeMahieu) doing this spring? I'm not necessarily saying I'd do the deal, but 2B and SS are supposed strengths in our farm.
For the sake of argument... - jstraw - 04-30-2010
<!--quoteo(post=93763:date=Apr 30 2010, 10:55 AM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Apr 30 2010, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93756:date=Apr 30 2010, 11:13 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Apr 30 2010, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93751:date=Apr 30 2010, 09:54 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 30 2010, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Because 1st base is the easiest position to find an adequate replacement at in baseball...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why I don't want to pay ANYONE huge money to play first.
I'd really hate to be in the Cardinals' spot. Couldn't happen to a nicer team.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it would suck to have Pujols playing 1B.
First base is an easier position to play, but I'd be quite happy to have a Pujols caliber player and pay him a fortune on this team. This team has no true slam dunk superstar. It hasn't since Lee's amazing 2005 season (wow, has it been that long?). I'd love to have one guy like Pujols, Matt Holliday, Crawford, Teixeira, Adrian Gonzalez, etc.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it would suck to have the Cardinals' budget and be paying what it will cost to have him remain at 1st base. Yes, he's a great asset on the field and at the plate and I am delighted that the Cards will pay what it costs to keep him.
I'd rather have the Cubs payroll and a $20mil 1b than theirs and a $30-*something*mil 1b.
For the sake of argument... - VanSlawAndCottoCheese - 04-30-2010
Just looked up some stats on those (and other top) guys. Yow. Most of our hitting prospects are have Ramirez-type springs.
For the sake of argument... - ruby23 - 04-30-2010
<!--quoteo(post=93765:date=Apr 30 2010, 11:01 AM:name=VanSlawAndCottoCheese)-->QUOTE (VanSlawAndCottoCheese @ Apr 30 2010, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93751:date=Apr 30 2010, 10:54 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 30 2010, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Because 1st base is the easiest position to find an adequate replacement at in baseball, SS is the most difficult. It would take Castro and probably 2-3 more top prospects to get Gonzalez. Gonzalez would then need to be signed to a Soriano-type extension after the season. It's just not a winning situation for the Cubs, IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't Castro's ultimate position rumored to be 2B with--in an ideal world--with Lee at SS? And how are our other Middle IF prospects (Watkins, Falherty, LeMahieu) doing this spring? I'm not necessarily saying I'd do the deal, but 2B and SS are supposed strengths in our farm.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When Lee's ready, then Castro can go to 2B and Theriot can go out to pasture.
For the sake of argument... - ruby23 - 04-30-2010
<!--quoteo(post=93763:date=Apr 30 2010, 10:55 AM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Apr 30 2010, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93756:date=Apr 30 2010, 11:13 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Apr 30 2010, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93751:date=Apr 30 2010, 09:54 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 30 2010, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Because 1st base is the easiest position to find an adequate replacement at in baseball...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why I don't want to pay ANYONE huge money to play first.
I'd really hate to be in the Cardinals' spot. Couldn't happen to a nicer team.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it would suck to have Pujols playing 1B.
First base is an easier position to play, but I'd be quite happy to have a Pujols caliber player and pay him a fortune on this team. This team has no true slam dunk superstar. It hasn't since Lee's amazing 2005 season (wow, has it been that long?). I'd love to have one guy like Pujols, Matt Holliday, Crawford, Teixeira, Adrian Gonzalez, etc.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holliday nor Crawford are superstars. Nice players, not close to superstars, pretty much on par with Ramirez and Lee, maybe not even as valuable.
For the sake of argument... - Coldneck - 04-30-2010
<!--quoteo(post=93771:date=Apr 30 2010, 12:14 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 30 2010, 12:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93763:date=Apr 30 2010, 10:55 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Apr 30 2010, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93756:date=Apr 30 2010, 11:13 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Apr 30 2010, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93751:date=Apr 30 2010, 09:54 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 30 2010, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Because 1st base is the easiest position to find an adequate replacement at in baseball...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why I don't want to pay ANYONE huge money to play first.
I'd really hate to be in the Cardinals' spot. Couldn't happen to a nicer team.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it would suck to have Pujols playing 1B.
First base is an easier position to play, but I'd be quite happy to have a Pujols caliber player and pay him a fortune on this team. This team has no true slam dunk superstar. It hasn't since Lee's amazing 2005 season (wow, has it been that long?). I'd love to have one guy like Pujols, Matt Holliday, Crawford, Teixeira, Adrian Gonzalez, etc.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holliday nor Crawford are superstars. Nice players, not close to superstars, <b>pretty much on par with Ramirez and Lee, maybe not even as valuable.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On that we'll disagree.
For the sake of argument... - ruby23 - 04-30-2010
<!--quoteo(post=93773:date=Apr 30 2010, 11:15 AM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Apr 30 2010, 11:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93771:date=Apr 30 2010, 12:14 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 30 2010, 12:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93763:date=Apr 30 2010, 10:55 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Apr 30 2010, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93756:date=Apr 30 2010, 11:13 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Apr 30 2010, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93751:date=Apr 30 2010, 09:54 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 30 2010, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Because 1st base is the easiest position to find an adequate replacement at in baseball...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why I don't want to pay ANYONE huge money to play first.
I'd really hate to be in the Cardinals' spot. Couldn't happen to a nicer team.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it would suck to have Pujols playing 1B.
First base is an easier position to play, but I'd be quite happy to have a Pujols caliber player and pay him a fortune on this team. This team has no true slam dunk superstar. It hasn't since Lee's amazing 2005 season (wow, has it been that long?). I'd love to have one guy like Pujols, Matt Holliday, Crawford, Teixeira, Adrian Gonzalez, etc.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holliday nor Crawford are superstars. Nice players, not close to superstars, <b>pretty much on par with Ramirez and Lee, maybe not even as valuable.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On that we'll disagree.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you'd be wrong.
For the sake of argument... - bz - 04-30-2010
<!--quoteo(post=93774:date=Apr 30 2010, 11:16 AM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 30 2010, 11:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93773:date=Apr 30 2010, 11:15 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Apr 30 2010, 11:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93771:date=Apr 30 2010, 12:14 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 30 2010, 12:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93763:date=Apr 30 2010, 10:55 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Apr 30 2010, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93756:date=Apr 30 2010, 11:13 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Apr 30 2010, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93751:date=Apr 30 2010, 09:54 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 30 2010, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Because 1st base is the easiest position to find an adequate replacement at in baseball...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why I don't want to pay ANYONE huge money to play first.
I'd really hate to be in the Cardinals' spot. Couldn't happen to a nicer team.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it would suck to have Pujols playing 1B.
First base is an easier position to play, but I'd be quite happy to have a Pujols caliber player and pay him a fortune on this team. This team has no true slam dunk superstar. It hasn't since Lee's amazing 2005 season (wow, has it been that long?). I'd love to have one guy like Pujols, Matt Holliday, Crawford, Teixeira, Adrian Gonzalez, etc.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holliday nor Crawford are superstars. Nice players, not close to superstars, <b>pretty much on par with Ramirez and Lee, maybe not even as valuable.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On that we'll disagree.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you'd be wrong.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean Holliday who left Colorado to suck dick in Oakland and perform well only with baseball's greatest hitter in the lineup, or Crawford who's only asset is SBs and has a career OPS of .775. Big contracts do not always equal a "superstar." As far as value to the Cubs, Ramirez and Lee are way more valuable than Crawford and Holliday. Not to mention Lee had 35 home runs and a .972 OPS last season while playing solid defense for a fraction of the cost Gonz will require at a position where more than half the players are all-star caliber (I counted 19 players), and Ramirez is our team MVP every year while playing GG caliber 3rd base with a 162 game average of 36 home runs and 121 RBIs.
Isn't it funny how just a touch of research can validate or disprove something? You should try it some time.
For the sake of argument... - bz - 04-30-2010
And it's Derrek Lee not
![[Image: OhioOil_OilDerrick.jpg]](https://fs.ogm.utah.gov/pub/mines/AMR_Related/OhioOil_OilDerrick.jpg)
For the sake of argument... - Scarey - 04-30-2010
<!--quoteo(post=93765:date=Apr 30 2010, 11:01 AM:name=VanSlawAndCottoCheese)-->QUOTE (VanSlawAndCottoCheese @ Apr 30 2010, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93751:date=Apr 30 2010, 10:54 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 30 2010, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Because 1st base is the easiest position to find an adequate replacement at in baseball, SS is the most difficult. It would take Castro and probably 2-3 more top prospects to get Gonzalez. Gonzalez would then need to be signed to a Soriano-type extension after the season. It's just not a winning situation for the Cubs, IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't Castro's ultimate position rumored to be 2B with--in an ideal world--with Lee at SS? And how are our other Middle IF prospects (Watkins, Falherty, LeMahieu) doing this spring? I'm not necessarily saying I'd do the deal, but 2B and SS are supposed strengths in our farm.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only reason there is a sense that Castro would move to 2nd is because Lee is a better fielder. That doesn't mean Castro won't stick at SS.
Also, Castro seems to be the future at SS. Yes, you can deal him and rely on the other guys, but the only middle infielders that will definitely stick at SS long term is Barney and Lee. Barney is on the same time table as Castro, but is almost assuredly going to be a liability with the bat. And Lee is at least two years away, and that's assuming he pans out.
For the sake of argument... - Coldneck - 04-30-2010
<!--quoteo(post=93778:date=Apr 30 2010, 12:42 PM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Apr 30 2010, 12:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93774:date=Apr 30 2010, 11:16 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 30 2010, 11:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93773:date=Apr 30 2010, 11:15 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Apr 30 2010, 11:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93771:date=Apr 30 2010, 12:14 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 30 2010, 12:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93763:date=Apr 30 2010, 10:55 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Apr 30 2010, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93756:date=Apr 30 2010, 11:13 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Apr 30 2010, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=93751:date=Apr 30 2010, 09:54 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 30 2010, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Because 1st base is the easiest position to find an adequate replacement at in baseball...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why I don't want to pay ANYONE huge money to play first.
I'd really hate to be in the Cardinals' spot. Couldn't happen to a nicer team.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it would suck to have Pujols playing 1B.
First base is an easier position to play, but I'd be quite happy to have a Pujols caliber player and pay him a fortune on this team. This team has no true slam dunk superstar. It hasn't since Lee's amazing 2005 season (wow, has it been that long?). I'd love to have one guy like Pujols, Matt Holliday, Crawford, Teixeira, Adrian Gonzalez, etc.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holliday nor Crawford are superstars. Nice players, not close to superstars, <b>pretty much on par with Ramirez and Lee, maybe not even as valuable.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On that we'll disagree.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you'd be wrong.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean Holliday who left Colorado to suck dick in Oakland and perform well only with baseball's greatest hitter in the lineup, or Crawford who's only asset is SBs and has a career OPS of .775. Big contracts do not always equal a "superstar." As far as value to the Cubs, Ramirez and Lee are way more valuable than Crawford and Holliday. Not to mention Lee had 35 home runs and a .972 OPS last season while playing solid defense for a fraction of the cost Gonz will require at a position where more than half the players are all-star caliber (I counted 19 players), and Ramirez is our team MVP every year while playing GG caliber 3rd base with a 162 game average of 36 home runs and 121 RBIs.
Isn't it funny how just a touch of research can validate or disprove something? You should try it some time.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're kind of an dickhead. There are ways to make a point without turning into a massive douche. Your post is not one of those ways
I'd rather build a team with both Holliday and Crawford due to age and performance. I'm actually not even a big fan of Holliday, but at 29 years old I'd rather have him than Lee and Ramirez. Lee is 36 and while still quite good is beginning the decline stage of his career. Ramirez is very good, but he's injury prone and his defense is slipping.